Curse

Skyy High · May 16, 2010, 10:19 PM // 22:19

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Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Alright so let me get this straight. By your logic anet is going to fix gw2 botting and there's going to allow botting now and forever in gw1 because they hate having the gw1 player base, and anyone who is now not botting or later is an idiot and they made the HoM not to reward dedicated old active players but just a way for you to get something extra in gw2 so when you go to buy gw2 you can be botting gw1 at the same time to further reward gw2 players.

Mmmmm...no. Please tell me where I said ANet "hates" the GW1 player base, or that anyone who's not botting is an idiot.

I'd also love for you to explain exactly how bots are going to demolish the rewards for GW1 players, when we don't even know what rewards we will get in GW2, nor how they will be assigned. Last I checked, bots won't get you through HM missions, vanquishes, or dungeons. Maybe you have a point when it comes to stuff like Drunkard, but for the rest of it, I call BS. It's not like there's an infinite cap of stuff that you can put in the HoM; there's a definite limit to what can fit in there, and there's sure to be a limit to what actually gets rewarded in GW2. Players have been hitting that limit for the past 2 years, sans bots. Maybe some people will get a few rewards due to botting something here or there, but I refuse to believe there are more people botting now (and earning significant rewards beyond gold) than all the people who have completed achievements in the past 5 years of GW.

Also, if we're going to take that route: gold-buyers have been "cheapening" the HoM rewards for years. Oh well, whatcha gonna do about it?

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Originally Posted by snaek

you contradict yourself numerous times in your post.

Please, point out these "numerous" occasions.

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aside from that, you are misunderstanding what i mean by "keep players happy". gw was a great game, and i spent $200++ on a great game. all that was required was to maintain the game, but alas anet could not do this. instead they have constantly introduced new things which broke the game. i'd happily go back to the gw of yesteryear, but unfortunately i cannot, because i did not pay $200 for a game program, rather i paid $200 for an account to access an online game of which the devs can do to it as they wish. whether the pay model is monthly or a one-time fee, i'm still paying for the account, not the game.

Okay, what update has irrevocably "broken" the game such that all enjoyment of it has been lost to you? Unless you mean the ones that made UWSC harder or nerfed a build or something like that, in which case...no.

Also: simply maintaining the game doesn't cut it for most people. Please at least attempt to realize that you are not the average GW player.

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whether or not you want to justify that $200 for a "couple hundred hours" of gameplay is a good deal or not is up to you. but i did not pay $200 for a "couple hundred hours",

Um, too bad? If this were any console game, or even a single-player RPG, a couple hundred hours for $200 would be absolutely amazing. Not to mention that a "couple hundred" is extremely lowballed. Go do /age right now; I'd be surprised if it were under a thousand hours.

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i paid $200 for a game that i can enjoy indefinitely

Your expectations were unreasonably high, in that case.

Talk about contradictions...you expect me to believe that the original game, or even the trilogy, would have kept you happily playing indefinitely, with nothing but "maintenance" and no additional content necessary? Bull. Absolute bull.

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otherwise i would have just paid $15 a month and cancelled my subscription when i got bored of it.

Okay, let's say you buy a game for $20, and you pay $15 a month. That means you'll have spent $200 over the course of a year. That means you got your money's worth out of GW if you played it for more than a year. Did you? Considering your join date, I'm gonna go with "yes". So, what are you complaining about again?

With that said, why the heck would you believe that a game where you don't have a subscription should have a longer lifetime than one in which you pay every month, and therefore the devs have a vested interest in keeping you playing? That's the opposite of logical!

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also fyi, problems started creeping up long before the introduction of the live team. it was only when anet had a branded "live team" that people could identify something to voice complaint to. the closest thing before the "live team" would probably be "izzy" bashing.

Yeah, people have been complaining about the game since beta. That's really not an argument in favor of the OP. Rather the latter, actually.

Ninja Ninja · May 16, 2010, 10:59 PM // 22:59

First off your wall text takes up a whole page and that's painful to read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

I'd also love for you to explain exactly how bots are going to demolish the rewards for GW1 players, when we don't even know what rewards we will get in GW2, nor how they will be assigned.

Since you love it I will, just because we don't know what the rewards are doesn't mean people getting any reward from the botting exploitation for gw2 is fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Last I checked, bots won't get you through HM missions, vanquishes, or dungeons. Maybe you have a point when it comes to stuff like Drunkard, but for the rest of it, I call BS. It's not like there's an infinite cap of stuff that you can put in the HoM; there's a definite limit to what can fit in there, and there's sure to be a limit to what actually gets rewarded in GW2.

You need to get up to date on your botting, they have bots for all those and more. Any HoM achievement can be obtained through botting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Players have been hitting that limit for the past 2 years, sans bots. Maybe some people will get a few rewards due to botting something here or there, but I refuse to believe there are more people botting now (and earning significant rewards beyond gold) than all the people who have completed achievements in the past 5 years of GW.

Well if you would like to learn more about it here's a recent 26 page petition against botting thread http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10436129.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Also, if we're going to take that route: gold-buyers have been "cheapening" the HoM rewards for years. Oh well, whatcha gonna do about it?

The pve botters have been indirectly affecting the HoM rewards for years but now the pvp botters are growing at a massive rate, and that directly affects game play because these botting programs work better than actual human reflexes and there's no way to avoid them like in pve where they have their own private instances.
I'm going to try and make the public and anet more aware of it.

snaek · May 16, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

@sky high: your continuing to make more contradictions. i'm not going to point out all the contradictions (because theres a lot), but i'll point out one of the main ones:

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You got your money's worth, you're literally not paying for anything that they're doing now, or not doing now.

1. they've already bought their time's worth of gameplay.

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simply maintaining the game doesn't cut it for most people.

2. therefore, they should be satisfied with whatever updates they receive.

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people have been complaining about the game since beta

3. any complaints they have, if any, should not be of any importance, i.e. ignored.

pretty much self-explanatory, i don't think i need to waste time explaining it. if you can't see the many holes in your argument, i'm not sure if i can help you out.

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Unless you mean the ones that made UWSC harder or nerfed a build or something like that

just the opposite... uwsc should have never existed in the first place.

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you expect me to believe that the original game, or even the trilogy, would have kept you happily playing indefinitely, with nothing but "maintenance" and no additional content necessary?

200% i can guaranteee you, yes. what? people can't enjoy games indefinitely? console classics sais hai? forgive my naiveness in thinking that gw1 could be a timeless classic, but i guess i was wrong.

Faer · May 16, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

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Originally Posted by shoyon456

Because:

So I honestly don't know why you don't undertand since I took the five minutes to find the source you wanted. Just accept it and move on. You seem to be yet another person lost in their own prideful hype to the point that they forgot what they had even said. I won't hold it against you though, sir.

No. I asked for a source of ArenaNet saying there would be no CTM because of the z-axis. Which, if you can't tell already, is not what you posted. I've been over this with two other people already, I'm fully aware that GW2 doesn't have CTM. Please try to read and comprehend posts before replying to them. It's not a difficult concept.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Izzy was actually pretty good, gaile always had herself on DnD in international districts with fans and talking to people like there kids with "the frog" but I've actually messaged izzy and got a response(funny because his job wasn't community relations).

He whispered me once saying I stole his character name. Good times.

Skyy High · May 17, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Since you love it I will, just because we don't know what the rewards are doesn't mean people getting any reward from the botting exploitation for gw2 is fair.

Didn't say it was fair, just that it's not game-breakingly horrible. As I pointed out already, anything you can buy (which, since people have sold fame and champ points for years, amounts to pretty much anything) can already be obtained by cheaters, via gold-buying. Botting isn't any different. Unfortunate, yes, but it's certainly not the death-blow to the game that you're making it out to be. Furthermore, like I said, even if we don't know what we're getting (and there's a high probability of us only getting rewards for filled monuments, regardless of what's in them, which would make this whole debate pointless since anyone can do that easy), we certainly know that you won't be able to transfer an unlimited amount of stuff to GW2, because the Hall only holds so much.

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You need to get up to date on your botting, they have bots for all those and more. Any HoM achievement can be obtained through botting.

Well if you would like to learn more about it here's a recent 26 page petition against botting thread http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10436129.html

Yes, I already knew all of that. The above stands; money can buy you anything (as posters on this forum are wont to repeat, when the notion as titles as indicators of prestige or skill comes up), and people have been cheating their way to money for a loooong time. Heck, I'd argue that the duping incident alone devalued these "achievements" far more than botting ever could. If you're PvE-ing, these are just things you need to deal with; play for yourself and rewards you enjoy, not for others to find prestigious.

PvP on the other hand...

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The pve botters have been indirectly affecting the HoM rewards for years but now the pvp botters are growing at a massive rate, and that directly affects game play because these botting programs work better than actual human reflexes and there's no way to avoid them like in pve where they have their own private instances.
I'm going to try and make the public and anet more aware of it.

I'm not arguing any of that. Unfortunately, giving the majority of players who play exclusively PvE their content (WiK, etc) is probably easier, and will ensure more repeat customers for GW2, than fixing botting. It's very unfortunate, but no one save the devs are qualified to say exactly what it would take to stop the botting. Do you not think that if they could fix it (cost-effectively), they would? That's the attitude that I really hate around here, the notion that ANet is actively trying to piss off / rip off / destroy your game.

Making the public "more aware" really won't accomplish much, if the percentage of "the public" that is affected by PvP bots is...what, 5%?

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

your continuing to make more contradictions. i'm not going to point out all the contradictions (because theres a lot), but i'll point out one of the main ones:

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You got your money's worth, you're literally not paying for anything that they're doing now, or not doing now.

1. they've already bought their time's worth of gameplay.

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simply maintaining the game doesn't cut it for most people.

2. therefore, they should be satisfied with whatever updates they receive.

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people have been complaining about the game since beta

3. any complaints they have, if any, should not be of any importance, i.e. ignored.

pretty much self-explanatory, i don't think i need to waste time explaining it. if you can't see the many holes in your argument, i'm not sure if i can help you out.

Wait...what? Those aren't contradictions. Those aren't even holes! Those are statements that you might disagree with, and you might even be able to provide arguments against (though, you haven't...), but how in the world do those three statements form a logical contraction? Do you even know what contradiction means? "A and not-A", that's a contradiction. Those three statements don't even talk about the same thing!

Furthermore, you're woefully mis-interpreting statements 2 and 3. Statement 2 was directed at you, and pointing out that your notion that simply maintaining the game would not be sufficient for most people. I did not say that people "should be happy with whatever they get", I said that people would not be happy with getting nothing but maintenance. Statement 3 was not intended to be "all complaints are invalid" (although I at least can see how you can interpret it as such), but rather "people have literally been saying 'the game is dead' since beta, and yet it's still fun, playable, and remarkably still there for you to play whenever you want". It's the sky-is-falling attitude that I was making fun of, not the complaints themselves.

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just the opposite... uwsc should have never existed in the first place.

That doesn't answer the question. What updates, specifically, have destroyed your ability to play the game?

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200% i can guaranteee you, yes. what? people can't enjoy games indefinitely? console classics sais hai? forgive my naiveness in thinking that gw1 could be a timeless classic, but i guess i was wrong.

That's an entirely different kind of "indefinitely", and you know it. Yeah, you can replay console games over a long period of time, but you certainly don't play them every day, or even every week, over the course of months or years. That's the kind of play schedule that an MMO is designed to illicit, and that's the kind of "indefinite" play - every day (or every couple of days) over the course of years - that people expect out of their MMOs, because you can't have a decent server population if your playerbase only logs in one day out of 20 on average. If you were claiming that you could play GW every couple of weeks or months for years on end....yeah, you still can, but that's not what most people want out of it, which is why simple "maintenance" wouldn't be sufficient

Ariovist Lynxkind · May 17, 2010, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Alright so let me get this straight. By your logic anet is going to fix gw2 botting and there's going to allow botting now and forever in gw1 because they hate having the gw1 player base, and anyone who is now not botting or later is an idiot and they made the HoM not to reward dedicated old active players but just a way for you to get something extra in gw2 so when you go to buy gw2 you can be botting gw1 at the same time to further reward gw2 players.

Alright so let me get this straight. By your logic I have said Anet hate having the gw1 player... base...

Wait, where in the blue hell did I say they hate the gw1 playerbase?

And we continue.... and anyone who is now not botting or later is an idiot...

again, where did I say that? Or even better, I will pull up a quote to counter it somewhat:

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Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

/Signed, but mainly because of the fact that it goes against the rules and regulations of the game. People have been banned for less (abusive language or scamming as 2 examples) and I dont think a blind eye should be turned here

However

I do believe this is something that should be or at least addressed with GW2. The main thing which I have with it in GW1 is the ones in the PvP area, because it does impact on other players. PvE.... not so much. Yeah, they farm gold and loot, but other than that not much harm (though I still dont support them). However, in GW2 with a persistent world, it will end up affecting both PvP and PvE players, and I hope they have better control over it with that game. Last thing you want is to start out a new toon, regardless if you are noob or vet, and some bot comes through and kills a mob without you getting a shot off (and the experience and loot going with it)

That was taken from the other bot thread. Given what has been released about GW2, it may not affect the PvE as much as I thought it would (at least in the event driven areas) but still I dont actually want to see it in the PvP setting.

To me, the botters are the idiots because they miss out on most of the game. If you are just interested in e-peen, what is the point playing in the first place?

But really, though I would love to see it continue, I dont see GW1 lasting much longer after the release of GW2, and I see the majority of the population going over to GW2 anyway, so I would rather see them working on preventing the stuff happening there rather than trying to battle it here.

Reason for my view is this is the situation I see happening: they make a fix, give a month at the most and there will be found a way around it, then there would be another fix because people are complaining again, then another loophole, rinse, repeat until 7 - 10 months later when GW2 is released... and is full of bots because the people who were trying to prevent it were too busy trying to fix the current broken program.

Also, even if the bots do go, you still have the stale meta to contend with, which again, I would rather see them fixing the situation for GW2 rather than wasting time on fixing a game which is on borrowed time.

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Originally Posted by lemming

You don't know what competitive means, do you?

If you are referring to PvP in GW, bots or no bots, then I could throw it back at you. I am an admitted PvEer, and even I know that the PvP in this game has tanked. I am sure Karate Jesus will be able to give an estimate on how long it has been tanked for.

*lemming* · May 17, 2010, 09:35 AM // 09:35

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Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

To me, the botters are the idiots because they miss out on most of the game. If you are just interested in e-peen, what is the point playing in the first place?

Profit.

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Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

If you are referring to PvP in GW, bots or no bots, then I could throw it back at you. I am an admitted PvEer, and even I know that the PvP in this game has tanked. I am sure Karate Jesus will be able to give an estimate on how long it has been tanked for.

It's one thing to sound cool by calling the game dead; it's another for the game to actually die because there's an arms race of bots happening.

Ariovist Lynxkind · May 17, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

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Originally Posted by lemming

Profit.

Profit isnt e-peen? having the most virtual currency isnt status? I mean, unless you are a gold farmer and selling it for real money of course...

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Originally Posted by lemming

It's one thing to sound cool by calling the game dead; it's another for the game to actually die because there's an arms race of bots happening.

Who said anything about sounding cool? I am just saying what has been said over and over here on these forums pre-OP Nerf/bot wars. seems like aeons ago (probably was 9 months) but there was a rare skill update which nerfed some skills because the two teams that fought out the finals over the previous months had near identical skill sets to each other.

Riot Narita · May 17, 2010, 10:15 AM // 10:15

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Originally Posted by ruk1a

Wouldn't it be smart to take some resources from GW2 and fix GW1 so your loyal fans will even want to play GW2 in the first place?

My opinion: "No"

"Loyal fans" have played GW1 to death by now. They'll want to play GW2 no matter what happens in GW1 from this point on. The best thing A-Net can do for those fans is to give them GW2.

In any case, the War In Kryta stuff seems aimed squarely at die-hard fans (to me). I'm amazed that they even bothered - it goes well beyond my personal expectations for GW1. That's cool and all, but it's the GW2 information they've been releasing over the last few weeks, that has me champing at the bit - far more than the WiK stuff.

So I want them to continue throwing everything they've got at GW2. They've got some fantastic ideas - get them working, get the game out. As soon as possible. Don't take any resources away from GW2 development, to try and rejuvenate a geriatric GW1.

Yeah there are things that ought to be fixed in GW1, but after 5 years of playing it... I find the prospect of GW2 far more exciting than GW1 being fixed or updated. Sucks for newer GW1 players I suppose... but in spite of current flaws its still a great game - amazingly good, considering it's 5 years old.

Ariovist Lynxkind · May 17, 2010, 10:49 AM // 10:49

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Originally Posted by Riot Narita

My opinion: "No"

"Loyal fans" have played GW1 to death by now. They'll want to play GW2 no matter what happens in GW1 from this point on. The best thing A-Net can do for those fans is to give them GW2.

In any case, the War In Kryta stuff seems aimed squarely at die-hard fans (to me). I'm amazed that they even bothered - it goes well beyond my personal expectations for GW1. That's cool and all, but it's the GW2 information they've been releasing over the last few weeks, that has me champing at the bit - far more than the WiK stuff.

So I want them to continue throwing everything they've got at GW2. They've got some fantastic ideas - get them working, get the game out. As soon as possible. Don't take any resources away from GW2 development, to try and rejuvenate a geriatric GW1.

Yeah there are things that ought to be fixed in GW1, but after 5 years of playing it... I find the prospect of GW2 far more exciting than GW1 being fixed or updated. Sucks for newer GW1 players I suppose... but in spite of current flaws its still a great game - amazingly good, considering it's 5 years old.

Wow... you have summed up my thoughts on the situation way better than I have.

I agree with the comment on WiK, it is more aimed at the die-hard fans, or should I say die-hard PvE fans (and lore junkies like myself)

*lemming* · May 17, 2010, 10:49 AM // 10:49

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Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Profit isnt e-peen? having the most virtual currency isnt status? I mean, unless you are a gold farmer and selling it for real money of course...

That's exactly what they're up to.

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Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Who said anything about sounding cool? I am just saying what has been said over and over here on these forums pre-OP Nerf/bot wars. seems like aeons ago (probably was 9 months) but there was a rare skill update which nerfed some skills because the two teams that fought out the finals over the previous months had near identical skill sets to each other.

People have been complaining about the game being dead since release day. This isn't something new.

saume · May 19, 2010, 04:04 AM // 04:04

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Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

People aren't asking for rocket science here, there asking them to address a botting problem that will carry over to gw2, any fix they make towards the bots can then be applied to gw2 hacker prevention so its not a waste of time.

I see the Z-Axis as a negative, I liked using the click to move to get around but now we'll be forced to played WoW style.

Turning away the market of the gw1 population is a bad business move, I'm not sure what game population your expecting to walk away from the games there already playing to go pick up gw2. They might as well start calling it AoC 2.

You do realize there's a massive population of botters making any HoM achievement worthless, at this point if there going to make the HoM achievements worthless then they might as well stop working on them and start coming back to gw1 and fix things or work on something different in gw2.

'not rocket science', god it seems so easy for ignorant people to fix things, bots arent easy to fix... they do not interfex with the game by itself, most bots that dont get u banned just work by scanning wats on screen... the only way to remove that would be to allow no other programs to run at the same time as GW, which would be dumb, cos u need vent, i like listening to music while playing, i have to check stuff on wiki at times, i have to talk with ppl on msn... try patching a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing bot, and then talk

betterjonjon · May 19, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

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Originally Posted by saume

'not rocket science', god it seems so easy for ignorant people to fix things, bots arent easy to fix... they do not interfex with the game by itself, most bots that dont get u banned just work by scanning wats on screen... the only way to remove that would be to allow no other programs to run at the same time as GW, which would be dumb, cos u need vent, i like listening to music while playing, i have to check stuff on wiki at times, i have to talk with ppl on msn... try patching a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing bot, and then talk

I guess you didnt read any of the 30+ pages on botting have you? There have been a few different fairly simple fixes that have been brought up. Most of which was to stop letting .dll injections happen(which if you ask me was stupid to ever let happen in the first place ~.~). But then this is off topic here anyway.

Ninja Ninja · May 19, 2010, 06:32 AM // 06:32

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Originally Posted by saume

'not rocket science', god it seems so easy for ignorant people to fix things, bots arent easy to fix... they do not interfex with the game by itself, most bots that dont get u banned just work by scanning wats on screen... the only way to remove that would be to allow no other programs to run at the same time as GW, which would be dumb, cos u need vent, i like listening to music while playing, i have to check stuff on wiki at times, i have to talk with ppl on msn... try patching a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing bot, and then talk

You talk about ignorant people and yet your trying to talk about a subject you don't know anything about. Banning botting dll injection would only also ban the textmod users, it wouldn't affect any other programs running on your computer.